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Indications about the two dialects of Tai Hang Tong (=Tai Muong)

Alexis Michaud, Thu, 2014-12-04 21:11
Regarding: 
Dialects
ISO 639-3: 
thc

Dear Ethnologue editors, This is to provide dialect information about Tai Hang Tong (=Tai Muong). In the classification by Michel Ferlus

(Ferlus, Michel. 2008. The Tai dialects of Nghệ An, Vietnam (Tay Daeng, Tay Yo, Tay Muong). In Anthony Diller, Jerold A. Edmondson & Luo Yongxian (eds.), The Tai-Kadai languages, 298–316. London & New York: Routledge.)

two dialects (=sub-varieties) are distinguished:

- Tai Pao and

- Tai Yo.

Tai Pao is a name which follows Vietnamese orthographic conventions: "ao" = International Phonetic Alphabet /aw/. A minor variant is Tai Paw. Since the entry for thc follows Vietnamese convention for "...Hang Tong", it would seem consistent to call the dialect "Tai Pao", but "Tai Paw" would be fully intelligible too. Tai Yo is also called "Tai Mene": Tai Mene is the name given in Laos to Tai Yo. The dialect is essentially the same. This is discussed in Chamberlain 1991. (Chamberlain, James R. 1991. Mène: A Tai Dialect Originally Spoken in Nghê An (Nghê Tinh), Viêtnam -- Preliminary Linguistic Observations and Historical Implications. Journal of the Siam Society 79. 103-123.) Historically, the scenario seems clear: when speakers of Tai Daeng (tyr) moved into the Tai Hang Tong (thc) area, they split an earlier dialect continuum into 2 areas, which evolved into present-day Tai Yo and Tai Pao. Telltale differences between these two varieties include a palatal ([-ic]) realization of final *-k after high front vowels in Tai Yo. Tai Pao retains velar realization. PS The reason why we are looking into this is because we are currently digitizing data on Tai Pao and Tai Yo (collected by Michel Ferlus and collaborators). The Lai Pao writing system, a Tai script unique to Vietnam, was re-discovered in the Tai Pao area in the 1990s; an electronic edition of the (only) original manuscript preserved to this day is in preparation and should be available online through the Pangloss Collection (http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/pangloss/index_en.htm) by 2016 if not before.

Currently Tai Pao is present in Ethnologue, under the code tpo. It is presented as "a language of Laos" so in effect 2 different entries exist for the same language: Tai Pao as spoken in Laos has its distinct entry; Tai Pao in Vietnam (=identical dialect) is part of Tai Hang Tong.

Currently, "tpo" is classified directly under "Tai", and "thc" under Southwestern Tai. This veils the fact that Tai Pao (=Tai Paw) is a sub-dialect of "Tai Hang Tong" = "Tai Muong".

It would be great to

(i) add a code for Tai Yo, the other sub-dialect of "Tai Hang Tong", and

(ii) place these two (Tai Yo and Tai Pao) under a "Tai Hang Tong" lower-level node.

Currently we are tagging Tai Pao data from Vietnam; should we use the code "tpo"? It does not seem quite right to use the code "tpo" because this is described as "a language of Laos" and its referencing in Ethnologue is under-specific (it should appear within Southwestern Tai). On the other hand, "thc" is slightly under-specific. If the above changes were made, we would be able to use a more informative label.

French as L1

Loup Solitaire, Thu, 2014-11-20 12:29
Regarding: 
Language Counts
Country: 
Switzerland

I don't know what criteria you use to set the numbers of speakers, but you write that the L1 French language in Switzerland is "1,490,000 in Switzerland (2000 census)." on your page, but this number is the number of people aged 15 years old and more not the whole population. Do your numbers on Ethnologue always use 15+ years old people for the numbers of speakers ? The 2012 census numbers are available (last decennial one being 2010 and now updated yearly), I think you must have missed it: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/05/blank/key/sprac... and http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/fr/index/themen/01/01/new/nip_detail.... If we extrapolate with 22.6% of 8 million inhabitants, we get 1.8 million L1 French speakers. If natality rates are better in French speakers than German ones (14-years old and younger) it could be a little higher at maybe 1.9-2.4 million (or under if Germanophones made more babies).

Editorial Action

We will update our figures on languages (including French [fra]) spoken in Switzerland for the 18th edition.

L2 users: 140,000,000 in Bangladesh

Loup Solitaire, Sun, 2014-11-09 01:59
Regarding: 
Population
ISO 639-3: 
ben

"L2 users: 140,000,000 in Bangladesh" I think you meant L1+L2.

Editorial Action

We will change the L2 speaker population for Bengali [ben] in Bangladesh for the 18th edition based on the census results.

Siciliano, calabrese e salentino

Marco Trizzino, Thu, 2014-11-06 18:28
Regarding: 
Dialects
ISO 639-3: 
scn
Buonasera. Il salentino (da Voi indicato come "The Pugliese dialect of Italian"), insieme alle parlate isolane e alle varianti della Calabria centro-meridionale, appartiene a un gruppo che nella "Carta dei dialetti d'Italia" di Pellegrini viene etichettato come "dialetti meridionali estremi". Tipologicamente, quindi, salentino e siciliano appartengono a un gruppo linguistico caratterizzato, per vari motivi che non sto qui a elencare, da identici esiti dal latino (non tutti dovuti alla presenza romana in queste zone: molto, ad esempio, si deve all'influsso del greco bizantino) e che possiamo chiamare "Sicilian language", ma allora va bene che il salentino appartenga tipologicamente alla "lingua siciliana", meno corretto - a mio parere - è affermare che in Salento si parla siciliano. Se per la Calabria reggina (e non solo) si può parlare di influsso diretto di Messina e del suo idioma nel processo di mutamento del codice linguistico (da greco a romanzo, e il modello non poteva che essere quello messinese: troppo distante il romanzo napoletano; cfr. F. Fanciullo), per il Salento le cose sono diverse e la somiglianza (relativa) tra salentino e siciliano è dovuta ad altri fattori (e, detto francamente, non mi dispiacerebbe un domani vedere un codice ISO tutto per il salentino, nonché un suo "riconoscimento" da parte dell'Unesco). Penso che lo stesso discorso possa valere anche per altre lingue d'Italia (=parlate nello Stato italiano): mi viene in mente il caso dell'emiliano-romagnolo, qualche anno fa "diviso" in due lingue connesse ma autonome, con propri codici ISO, ma si pensi anche al "South Italian" (Italiano del Sud?), da Ethnologue definito "Napoletano-Calabrese" per le grasse risate di accademici da me stesso udite in più occasioni (d'altronde, quale comune dell'Abruzzo o del barese si autodefinirebbe "di lingua napoletano-calabrese"?). E se comunque negli ultimi esempi citati esiste una continuità territoriale, tra Sicilia e Salento neanche questo: la distanza tra Messina e Santa Maria di Leuca è praticamente identica a quella che intercorre fra Trapani e Villasimius!

La Langue Française dans le Monde 2014

Loup Solitaire, Wed, 2014-11-05 04:25
Regarding: 
Language Use
ISO 639-3: 
fra

For data on the French language : Book "La Langue Française dans le Monde 2014" (French). Publication date: 15 November 2014. Author: Observatoire de la langue française / Organisation internationale de la Francophonie. Publisher: Nathan. ISBN-13: 978-2098826540.

Editorial Action

We have made note of this new publication for information on French [fra] spoken in countries around the world.  Thank you.

Language Development: Bible 2013

Louis Rose, Mon, 2014-09-15 13:28
Regarding: 
Language Development
ISO 639-3: 
tih

Bible: 2013 Bible Society of Malaysia published this whole Bible in 2013

Editorial Action

We will update the 18th edition database with this information.

Language Development: Bible published 2014

Louis Rose, Mon, 2014-09-15 13:26
Regarding: 
Language Development
ISO 639-3: 
drg

Bible: 2014 Bible Society of Malaysia released this Bible in 2014

Editorial Action

We will update the 18th edition database with this information.

Location 'Belong' is likely spelled incorrectly. The name of the district is Betong

Louis Rose, Fri, 2014-09-05 16:11
Regarding: 
Location
ISO 639-3: 
zlm

'Belong' is likely 'Betong' district.

Editorial Action

We will make this correction in our 18th edition database.

Suggested EGIDS change from 8b to 6b

Louis Rose, Fri, 2014-08-08 10:43
Regarding: 
Language Use
ISO 639-3: 
kzj

In email conversation with Rita Lasimbang, president of the Kadazandusun Language Foundation, she said the following regarding the EGIDS level for Coastal Kadazan: "1) Coastal Kadazan presently is in EGIDS 6b - Though it is threatened, by and large - Coastal Kadazan is still being used by the grandchildren generation of the community. We (I and a few others from KLF) attended a Community Based Language Development (CBLD) workshop in KK (in April 7 - 11, 2014) conducted by David Eberhard for a few of the language groups facilitators. The level of sustainability that Coastal Kadazan is aiming at is Sustainable Orality or about EGIDS 6a - Vigorous. KLF is continuously conducting awareness programs on the importance of using the mother tongue as an identity marker but most of all as a language specifically given by the Creator when the Kadazan people first came into being. This language movement is conducted along with the Indigenous Peoples Movement - as their linguistic rights. I must also share with you that the language scenario in Malaysia is changing...The Ministry of Education is now open to the teaching of indigenous languages - the teaching and learning of Murut and Iranun has gotten the green light - at what level, this depends on the capacity of the community itself. The Coastal Kadazan has applied for the teaching and learning of COASTAL KADAZAN. This would certainly maintain the vibrancy of the language. The present IP language being taught in the formal education is the standard form - Kadazandusun - which is yet to be accepted by the whole Dusunic community :(" With this communication, I am proposing a change from EGIDS 8b to 6b. - Louie Rose

Editorial Action

We will make this change in our 18th edition database.

Edit Dialects of Lubuagan

Rynj Gonzales, Fri, 2014-07-04 02:01
Regarding: 
Dialects
ISO 639-3: 
knb

Lubuagan was listed a dialect of Lubuagan. I'm not sure if it's a typo. :)

Editorial Action

The dialect name Lubuagan - which repeats the language name [knb] - will be removed for the 18th edition.

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